As we continued our discussion with Patrick Byrne in our most recent Breaking Battlegrounds podcast episode, the conversation turned to one of the most controversial and rarely understood topics in American politics: the rise of a permanent political class inside the federal government.

Byrne explained how this phenomenon, often referred to as the “deep state,” didn’t appear overnight. He traced its roots back to the 1990s, when a long-standing taboo in Washington quietly broke. Traditionally, political appointees were meant to serve temporarily—helping an administration advance its policies before returning to private life. The career bureaucrats beneath them kept government operations running, regardless of which party held power.

But that balance changed. Byrne describes a process known as “Ram Specking”—named after post–World War II legislation—that allowed political appointees to secure permanent positions within the federal bureaucracy. What was once rare soon became routine. Appointees with strong political connections could have new positions created under them and then take those jobs for themselves, effectively burrowing into the system as lifelong employees.

According to Byrne, this shift has produced an entrenched layer of roughly 2,000 officials spread across federal agencies—particularly in places like the Department of Justice—who gained their roles through political maneuvering rather than merit. Over time, he argues, this group has become a powerful, unaccountable force that persists regardless of who wins elections.

Both parties, Byrne admits, share responsibility for the problem—roughly two-thirds of those who “burrowed in” were Democrats and one-third Republicans. But the larger issue, he says, is how this hidden structure erodes accountability and distorts the democratic process.

Byrne’s remarks raise a crucial question for voters and policymakers alike: if elections no longer fully determine who governs, how can real reform take place?

Transcript

**Sam Stone: **So one of the things is I was watching this that struck me and Chuck and I have talked about this before on air here is that Obama, different than any other President, seeded the federal apparatus and state governments with his operatives in permanent bureaucratic positions, not in appointed positions. And to me, that’s always seemed like the foundation of the deep state. Do you think it’s that or do you think it’s bigger than that.

**Patrick Byrne: **That’s a good place to start, but it’s bigger than that. It’s bigger than that. What Obama did get his people across the federal bureaucracy, but especially the Department of Justice, there’s something, there’s actually something was broke. There was a taboo. Have you ever heard, Chuck you probably have heard of this Ram spec. Have you ever heard of Ram specking someone in? You ever heard that expression?

Chuck Warren: No I have not.

**Patrick Byrne: **In Washington D.C, you know, you have the, you have the bureaucracies. And just like any country, when the new leader comes in, he puts his, I don’t want to say apparatchiks, but he puts his…

**Sam Stone: **Appointees.

**Patrick Byrne: **Appointees at the top of the bureaucracy, they’re not really supposed to run it. They’re keeping, make sure it stays on track with his orders. But there are permanent people inside who run it. Well, it’s always been, and it’s not just the top guy, there’s three or 4,000 political appointees across all the agencies. The theory always was that you served your time and then you moved on. And there was always a taboo against digging into the bureaucracy.

And to do so though, it was allowed for after World War II. And I think it was two senators with a name like Ram and Speck or something. So was called a Ram Speck in somebody. Anyway, maybe it was one senator named Ram Speck. So that’s the verb. But in the 90s, that taboo broke. And what started happening is you get some political appointee whose dad runs an auto dealer and gives some money to Bill Clinton, 25 grand, and the kid studies, you know, gender studies at Brown or whatever.

And he gets out and he gets made a political appointee and assistant secretary or something. I mean, a lot of those people have are pretty pretty anyway. But the problem is they’re there. And then as they’re over it, they they get the bureaucracy underneath them to open up a job. Let’s say we have a special debt at two hundred and fifty thousand dollar a year job. And the guy takes it himself in his own bureaucracy. So he’s gotten to the top through political appointments and then he’s burrowing down into the bureaucracy.

Now it’s starting in the 90s that taboo went away and Democrats and Republicans have both violated the taboo. It’s probably two thirds Democrats, one third Republican, but there’s a layer of about 2000 people in the top of our government who got there that way. Not by being the best FBI or DHS agents moving up, but they got appointed as a political appointee and you know, God bless some of them want to, but then they use that opportunity to create job for themselves in the bureaucracy and dug in became a federal employee. So those 2,000 people are real problem.

**Sam Stone: **Where they become very difficult to fire or get rid of.

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